Your Brain At Work LIVE – S7:E19 | A Decade of Growth Mindset

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Shelby Wilburn: Social platforms and regardless of what platform you’re on, let us know where you’re joining in from in the comments section.

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Shelby Wilburn: Speaking of comments, if you are on zoom make sure that you select all panelists and attendees or everyone, so that we can all see your comments in the conversation So where are you joining in from today drop it in the chat for us let’s see.

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Shelby Wilburn: We have Toronto Ohio Montreal we’re all over Mexico Austin nice amazing we love our global community.

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Shelby Wilburn: For our regulars it’s great to have you back for those of you that are new to your brain at work, live, welcome to the party.

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Shelby Wilburn: For some context, it is a title of one of the best selling books by our CEO and co founder Dr David rock and it’s also the name of our blog and podcast.

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Shelby Wilburn: We are recording today’s session so if you’re interested in a replay be on the lookout for an email later today.

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Shelby Wilburn: That email is also going to include a survey for feedback, as well as a number of resources that are aligned to today’s conversation.

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Shelby Wilburn: Now, as far as sharing slides we reserve that for our current clients and corporate members only, however, if you’re interested in becoming one, let us know in the chat.

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Shelby Wilburn: We also suggest turning off your phones closing out of your messaging Apps and email, so you can get the most out of today’s discussion.

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Shelby Wilburn: grab a pen and paper to do some notes as well, it helps with the audio and video quality too.

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Shelby Wilburn: And we love interaction so again feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us, we really love to see that in the chat because we love to engage with you all.

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Shelby Wilburn: Now as we’re about to kick off get settled in grab some coffee some water and stretch as we dive in deeper into this topic.

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Shelby Wilburn: But before we do that let’s introduce our speakers for today, so our first guest panelists is a long time neuroscience junkie.

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Shelby Wilburn: He pursued this interest at the University of buffalo where he earned his Ms in neuroscience as well as completed his PhD in cognitive psychology at Syracuse university.

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Shelby Wilburn: Now, as a team Member and ally his work focuses on interpreting and translating scientific research into actionable insights for organizations.

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Shelby Wilburn: he uses his expertise in cognitive psychology specifically in human memory and decision making and advanced computational analysis to advise inform and support the creation of our scalable solutions, please welcome senior researcher here, Dr Ryan curl Ryan it’s great to have you.

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Ryan Curl: going to show you it’s great to be here.

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Shelby Wilburn: And our next guest is an aussie to new yorker who coined the term neuro leadership when he co founded and ally over two decades ago.

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Shelby Wilburn: With a professional doctorate for successful books under his name and a multitude of by lines, ranging from Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more.

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Shelby Wilburn: Of warm welcome for our co founder and CEO of the neuro leadership institute Dr David rock David great to have you here, as always, and passing it over to you.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Thanks Shelby thanks very much we’ve been experimenting with a few different formats and today we’re going to do something a little different.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: i’m going to share a bit of research and history and background and context and then ryan’s going to come in and kind of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: do some of the deepest science and we’ll have a little bit of a conversation.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: With Ryan as a guest so we’re experimenting all the time, as you follow us you’ll see that and we’re excited to start to share with you.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Something we put together for the summit, but we’ve gone deeper on this and it’s really looking back over a decade literally a decade of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Helping companies, develop a growth mindset and this is, this is a topic that’s near and dear to us.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And I think you’ll find it hopefully you’ll find it really fascinating and give you some context to kind of what the concept is and how it works and why it works and all that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So firstly the concept of fixing growth mindset it’s actually a long, long history, and it goes, all the way back literally thousands of years with the early philosophers were were noticing that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The beliefs, we have about our abilities had an impact on those abilities.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But it was in the 70s, that academic started to really define this work, there was a whole body of research many, many papers published talking about entity theory versus incremental theory.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And if you’re an academic buff and you’ve got to look that stuff up dig in and see the original work, it was fascinating that they found in a way back then that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The belief that you had about a domain, we had this very, very big impact on your performance in that domain, they called it into the incremental there Carol dweck.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: wrote a famous book called mindsets she kind of popularized the work from the 70s, she started to also do great research on this is also a researcher.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: She did a lot of great work bringing this into schools and then in 2012 we started to work with this originally with Heidi brand house and who is actually one of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: One of Carol dweck students Heidi joined us for a number of years, and she helped us to develop the concept of organizational growth mindset and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Since that time we’ve become the really the leading global practitioner and organizational practitioner in this space and i’ll give you a sense of kind of what’s happened in the last decade and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then we’ll define growth mindset, a little more and then i’ll talk about what we’ve learned over this decade, as well.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So firstly we’ve done a lot of research, a lot more than is kind of them that we share necessarily on growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So it’s a scattering of different things here at the top, you can see more some industry pieces that we’ve written in HP are in quotes.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A number of different journals but down the bottom here what you see.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Three industry reports that are pretty significant research on the first one their growth mindset culture, what is the growth mindset culture undefined understanding it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: illustrating it and we did a whole research project on what we should be doing about performance management, when you weave in growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And we do a lot of consulting and advising on that space now and then we more recently published something on how growth mindset supports organizations through disruption was that very prescient or what.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And a number of the organizations we’ve worked with before the pandemic found that having growth mindset as a tool.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To help them tremendously through the last few years, and then the two journal papers, the central one is organizational growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And i’ll come back to that a little bit later it’s a it’s really the only paper that looks at what is growth mindset in our organization and if you’re interested in this area that’s something to really, really dig into spend some time on.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then the other one is is probably the most important habit to build around growth mindset which is around asking for feedback.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And we did a whole body of research on feedback and it turns out that asking for feedback is a very powerful growth mindset tool but.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We can dig into that if you’re interested, so we we spent the last 10 years doing a lot of research, both at the level of like How does this work in the brain.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: How does this work in organizations, how does this work in the systems and it’s been a really, really fascinating journey now separately to that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: we’ve been we’ve been helping organizations build these strategies these rollouts now and I saw it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: At a recent summit in February, which was virtual we had the outgoing CEO of Procter and Gamble the top left there David Taylor.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Talking about the impact of growth mindset on their organization, we help them a PNG roll it out across the whole business it’s a fascinating case study and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I think my team can probably put that session in the chat or if not, we could send it out, but really fascinating session to watch him talking about the impact of growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: On PNG, but you can see some of the organizations we’ve worked with many of these for many years.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: tracking the data assessing the impact trying different experiments and really embedding the concept across both priorities habits and systems.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: across these organizations so it’s been a fascinating journey, I think we probably should write a whole paper on everything that we’ve learned on.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Over this time so let’s let’s dig in what is the concept if you’re new to a very simply, you know goes to the fixed mindset is the ways of thinking about.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Our personal abilities, including our beliefs, about how much our skills can be improved over time now very domain specific so you can have a growth mindset about.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, writing music, but a fixed mindset about reading music, which is strange, but true, you can have a growth mindset about you know one instrument.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: musical instrument, a fixed mindset about another it’s quite domain specific, but what happens is, we have an overarching belief set.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: about our ability in in all these different domains that we participate in a domain might be, you know just generally doing work or it might be, you know, working with a particular type of customer.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Or it might be dealing with change and we might have a mindset about change so it’s very domain, specific and we have this.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Mostly unconscious unnoticed set of beliefs about our abilities in that domain now it’s one or two it’s it’s it’s either a fixed mindset or growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The fixed mindset is basically believing that in that domain you’re either born smart or you’re not right so it’s a musical instrument you’re like you know just not a.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Not a you know woodwind person i’m much more piano kind of puts it right you just you just decided you’re not that kind of person.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Therefore there’s not much point, putting an effort right it’s no point trying not, by the way, feedback is dangerous now in that case.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You don’t want feedback, if you are intrinsically not good at something stretch goals here a bad right if you’ve decided you’re not a.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, would win kind of person to music you like you’re not going to try a completely new type of instrument right.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and other people who are good at something actually make you less confident So if you see an amazing clarinet player you’re like well, I know, good a clarinet and i’m not going to try any other instrument so it’s it’s interesting that the fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: leaves you kind of not wanting to get better and even when you see a great mentor or people give you feedback it falls on deaf ears.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know if you intrinsically believe you’re not good at you know, working from home, for example, you intrinsically believe that’s not you.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Then you know people telling you how great it is you just don’t hear and people giving you ideas people giving you feedback.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, seeing other people good at all of that just doesn’t work right so it’s really important to the mindset that’s fixed is is you know literally fixed we don’t kind of open up the growth mindset is this belief that we can improve.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But there is a belief that effort matters feedback, in this case is sought after you’re much more likely to you know try getting feedback stretch goals with good.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and other people’s success is a chance to actually learn so you’re much more likely to reach out, and you know learn from the people, so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s very interesting, you know, there are these two mindsets we have it, for you know we have about everything, but it’s it has a real effect on the brain.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The stuff has a real effects on the brain moment to moment as fascinating so i’ll slow down to give you a sort of a sense of some of the studies and then Ryan can come on a moment.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And to kind of flesh this out of it, but what we see in studies, is that you can prime people.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In the lab you can prime people, which is like nudging them one way or the other, like fixed or growth, quite simply, like you give people.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A task on a computer and you say hey people who’ve done this task before they seem to get better and better as they go right that’s that person now has a growth mindset about that task you can cry tribes and other people and say.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: hey in this task people seem to hit a plateau they kind of try for a while they they quickly kind of level off they don’t seem to get much better.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And what we see is, as you as you primed with these mindsets people’s attention literary is different with eye tracking.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Software you can actually see people just not really paying attention to the task when you have this fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s really interesting another big set of studies is around errors and mistakes and what we see is that when you have a fixed mindset and you make a mistake.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Your brain gets much more activated the threat Center in particular gets much more activated then when you have a growth mindset and make a mistake.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And what’s interesting also is when you have a growth mindset make a mistake, you actually start activating more your pre motor cortex, which is a planning network.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: you’re actually thinking about what you would do differently next time you’re not doing that, when you have a fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you know, whenever an upstate comes along and you have a fixed mindset you just get really annoyed and you don’t think about anything differently right so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s really you know, impacting like attention and cognitive control, and you know where we put focus and, of course, how we interpret success and failures.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: is really, really central so it’s not just a you know, a concept like you can literally see these things happening in the brain as they as they occur.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right Ryan, you want to come on tell us a little bit more about kind of some of the networks involved and some of the story behind some of this give us a give us a few minutes of some of the deeper science happening here.

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Ryan Curl: Sure, thanks, David, I just want to reiterate one point of yours, that I think is really.

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Ryan Curl: really critical, which is that your mindset can be primed in that way, and I think when some people hear a lot about you know the neuro neuro activity research they’re like.

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Ryan Curl: It it makes them think about this kind of trades like either, I have a growth mindset, or I don’t because my brain fires, the square or fires that way.

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Ryan Curl: But the reality is with the certain crimes and with this different perspective, your neuro connectivity between areas of your brain can change that’s absolutely plastic so.

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Ryan Curl: I think that’s an important point and it’s and it goes to what you were saying before so in terms of the little bit more to add to the neural activity.

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Ryan Curl: it’s really important to consider how these different areas of your brain are firing together how they’re connected with each other and the three most important areas of the brain that i’ve shown to fire really.

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Ryan Curl: more strongly together if you have a growth mindset in these situations that David talked about when you’re potentially making errors it really goes through how you’re.

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Ryan Curl: Switching your mentality from oh this you know this error is a threat, I need to kind of you know, avoid.

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Ryan Curl: attending to it versus know this is a learning opportunity and I can, and I need to really pinpoint how I can get the most out of these errors correct them in the future and move forward.

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Ryan Curl: And so the areas of the brain that are responsible for that are DORSAL lateral prefrontal cortex which is really the error monitoring Center along with a few other things, but, in this context really error monitoring.

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Ryan Curl: Our DORSAL anterior cingulate cortex which is kind of like it’s probably one of the areas of the brain that’s most complicated to explain.

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Ryan Curl: But it’s more or less like what is the bigger context here how do I understand how my behaviors are enacting in the world in this moment.

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Ryan Curl: And so there’s a strong connection between those areas if you have a growth mindset which is to say i’m making a mistake let’s pinpoint exactly what i’m doing in this context to make sure I can adjust accordingly.

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Ryan Curl: And then the crucial last piece of this puzzle is its connection the DORSAL anterior cingulate cingulate cortex is connection with the stride.

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Ryan Curl: And so I think most people are familiar with this try it on which is kind of our reward Center right, this is, I don’t mean process goes through that dictates the value that we that we perceived or any sort of interaction in our in our lives.

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Ryan Curl: And so what happens with that connection is to say Okay, let me kind of draw the big picture i’m making mistakes my DORSAL lateral prefrontal cortex is active.

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Ryan Curl: Understanding the context of those mistakes that’s the DORSAL anterior cingulate cortex and then the real cherry on top, is the connection with the stride and which is to say i’m being rewarded for learning.

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Ryan Curl: This is good, this is a positive thing that’s happening here, and what we know from you know typical opera and conditioning experiments, is that you know behaviors that are rewarded will continue so treating.

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Ryan Curl: Mistakes as learning opportunities having that in your brain fire accordingly will continue and it all, it will you know increase in that way.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: that’s great thanks Ryan that’s fascinating and folks are asking questions that are asking questions, the answer is, you can.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And i’ll answer one actually that came in from Nancy the it will answer one or two of them will will dig in further but.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s interesting office a lot, you know other assessments and we actually have an organizational assessment that assesses all your talent practices from like hirings promotion performance, if everything.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And we can actually say hey how much volume systems in your company align with growth mindset and often, the answer is, they don’t very well.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In terms of an individual assessment we’ve been really obsessing with teaching people like just enough that they can absolutely pick this in themselves and others really quickly and i’ll talk more about that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But we’ve been able to see that when you teach people kind of just enough, they can really quickly on the fly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: identify fixing growth mindsets and actually data we’ve got from thousands of people is about a quarter of people when they learn this through us about a quarter of people are noticing a fixed or growth mindset daily and shifting it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Will they know the noticing a fixed mindset daily and shifting your growth mindset, at least once a day.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So about a quarter of people least once a day so that’s what we’ve been anchored on is how do we get better and better and better at kind of people self assessing in the moment and noticing it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: versus any kind of formal assessment as well, because the other irony of an assessment about fixing growth mindset is its kind of fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To have a an assessment, in a sense, which is ironic so i’m asking is mindset domain specific very domain specific even subdomains so I try to explain that before very badly so it’s not like we have a you know fixed mindset about work that would be impossible, you wouldn’t survive.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And no one has a growth mindset about you know work again and will be, you know there’s sections of work we’re going to have different types of mindsets.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Absolutely so it’s um Ryan can talk a little bit more about that we’re going to get into sort of some of the new research in a minute, but I just want to kind of give you a little bit of a sense that this is a real thing.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: It really impacts brain processing, but the really cool thing which i’ll show you in a minute.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is it it like even a little bit of good quality education done properly, has a huge impact much bigger than we predicted.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: When we went into this i’ll show you some of the data, I mean a quarter of people every day noticing a fixed mindset shifting to wrote this amazing.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But I tell you how many people do it 123 times a week like about 90% of folks that learned this about 90 to 95 sometimes for said.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Every week at least 123 times are actually noticing and shifting their mindset, so when you teach this well and organization it actually has a real impact.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: On engagement because engagements definitely trying to being more in this optimistic state it’s obviously enabling learning, but ultimately it’s helping everyone adapt faster.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Because in that growth mindset you dramatically more likely to you know also feedback set stretch goals adapt quickly you know deal with things you know, really, really different in one way to think about this is, you know if your.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Brain is going through a lot of change disruptive change, especially if you have that fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know you’re going to be thinking, what if i’m not good at this, you know how am I going to fail, maybe I don’t have the skills, yet to do hybrid management, you know.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I could make mistakes, others could do it better like if you have this fixed mindset about say hybrid you know management.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: that’s what you’re going to be thinking, but if you have this this growth mindset about hybrid management you’re like hey i’m not perfect, but I can get better I can always improve.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you know it’s a chance to practice and get better you know i’m getting better over time.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, particularly relevant with lots of change and when there’s like massive disruptive change and become like a critical skill to have.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To help you bring yourself back from you know the chaos, sometimes so really, really, really relevant in the pandemic and continuing to be.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And I know that organizations, including you know general mills and Microsoft and and PNG and others, but a lot of value from having this as part of their.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Not just their language but part of the habits that people had.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: week to week to week so let’s dig in further I want to, I want to share with you kind of some of the insights and maybe Ryan, maybe come back on this, I think it’s such a fascinating.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: conversation this one, I want to share with you and I think we’re going to work on a deeper piece on this, I want to share with you kind of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: What we’ve seen and maybe RON you can comment on kind of what jumps out to you, but the first thing that we’ve seen is it’s a little bit of teaching about this kind of gets people.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: doing something new that tends to stick, but not not for like a year, but if you get so basically teaching the concept over say an hour.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You, but if you teach it well you’ve got this overarching habit that embeds pretty quickly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Now what’s that overarching habit it’s basically noticing a fixed mindset shifting to growth.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right it’s going oh look at that i’ve got a fixed mindset about that and shifting to a growth mindset, so that that habit embeds pretty quickly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Over a lot of people like you know even 100,000 people, but the real benefit comes from going deeper, and there are three habits, then that build more slowly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That are really, really important and you want to build those one, at a time and i’ll show you those those are experiment value progress learned from others and we saw from our research, these are the most important habits to anchor on and really build one of the time.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: to really get people into the practice of experimenting into the practice of looking at progress in the practice of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Learning from others, particularly asking for feedback, so these these three things turned out to be really, really important.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you know you you, you certainly can get some benefit from just you know, a general talk on this, but you get a lot more benefit from really going deep.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and building these habits properly everything it was really interesting is that people find.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Immediate value like that afternoon, you know we do a session the morning like that afternoon, they start seeing this and finding value at work, and they also find a lot of value at home.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you know, in relation to their hobbies or sports their careers their interest, but also the kids you know comes up a lot people have a lot of big insights about parenting.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: All sorts of things, so it has this like universal impact that’s actually helpful and you get this immediate kind of face validity from teaching this that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That really, really, I guess, really creates by it and the other thing that we’ve seen our show you some of the data is that real change can scale to like I mean we’ve got.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Sites like 100,000 people, but it can also really stick and i’ll show you some data like six months later data it’s quite amazing I think i’ve got here.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So this is this is some examples of scale, you know 98% felt more effective, but 88% actually we’re shifting every week 123 times So these are thousands of people.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But we’ve got this site that we were able to go back to 500 people six months later we’re going to start to do that a lot more.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Now the really interesting question is the middle one because that’s kind of a test question, because no one was really discussing growth mindset before they learned this that was pretty much zero you know a few percent.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But what you see is six months later 86% were discussing growth mindset with others weekly weekly right now what’s interesting is that number was only just slightly north of 90%.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: literally a couple of weeks after the initiative so not much slippage, and this was this was a very, very large audience the sample size here was 500.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So not much slippage from you know immediately after the program to six months later, literally stealing you know engaging with this constantly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: really interesting and then the final one is it’s really interesting we’ve seen more and more and more that this is a really important and powerful foundation to all deeper kinds of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Learning initiatives change initiatives leadership initiatives culture initiatives like starting with growth mindset super powerful we started to think of it is as kind of like the soil.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That you’d put a plan to and right, the quality of the soil.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And you know really good quality soil doesn’t mean your plants will grow you go to the right plan to the right water in the right light all those things.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But if you have really good soil you got a really good chance of things growing right so growth mindsets kind of this foundation that you’ve got really good soil to to put ideas into, and you know ideas you put into a plant in that soil and much more likely to take.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Because people believe they can learn right because people are open to new ideas, because we will ask each other for input more right so that that foundation and Microsoft saw that years ago they put growth mindset without help you as the foundation of all their learning and culture.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And many, many other organizations have now started to do that as well, so those are the insights right anything you want to add there or gotta dig into.

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Ryan Curl: yeah I think the thing that’s coming to mind, for me, is you know we talked about how our growth mindset or a fixed mindset is domain specific.

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Ryan Curl: But it reminds me when we’re talking about you know these specific habits, you want to focus on.

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Ryan Curl: Is that there’s this new research that shows that not only to kind of add confusion and more confusion to the next, is that not only is it domain specific.

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Ryan Curl: But you can have aspects of a fixed mindset or a growth mindset, or you can act in a way that’s aligned with a fixed mindset or a growth mindset in any one domain so i’m like, for example.

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Ryan Curl: believe in theory that I can develop a skill in a certain context, but maybe I see my peers as.

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Ryan Curl: As competitors so i’m not learning from them instead of competing from them so some aspects of my perspective in my behavior in one context are aligned with a growth mindset and others with a fixed mindset.

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Ryan Curl: And so what we what’s been coming out in the scientific.

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Ryan Curl: Scientific research recently is that your self report of this of your mindset like yes, I think, in general, I have a growth mindset or no, I think I have a fixed mindset.

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Ryan Curl: Does it tell us all that much about what you’re actually going to do, and what benefits will come from them.

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Ryan Curl: So that’s why, when we focus on these key habits and really kind of like increasing the magnification on not just what you believe about yourself, but what actually are your are you doing.

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Ryan Curl: You know that’s how you get.

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Ryan Curl: A significant progress enough to retain an artwork.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right, you know it’s very you know interesting question from Isabella.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: take a moment to address.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then we’ll maybe we’ll get into the science, a little more I think that’s where we’re going yeah so interesting question from from Isabella and kind of the connection between psychological safety and growth mindset and interesting you know, like.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: For us, psychological safety means low threat state overall like people, or even a neutral to positive in their overall our static load.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: they’re feeling safe or if they’re if they’re anxious it’s a level of threat, like you know we got Level one threat, where they still feel very in control of their autonomy is pretty high and they’re able to really focus well.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So psychological safety is essentially like neutral slightly positive or slightly negative on the threat rewards scale and for us that’s kind of the sum total of all the different social threats and rewards coming in, so you can have high autonomy.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And and and high relatedness which is you know sense of connection with others.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But really a lot of uncertainty and it might be it can balance out, so what we see is that the two are really important together.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you want, you know you want your managers to be creating these these conditions where people are not feeling overly threatened right so they’re.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: they’re increasing people’s sense of certainty and autonomy and all the things so you want managers to do that and create these conditions for growth mindset so they’re.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: they’re slightly different things, but there’s no question, if you had poor psychological safety you wouldn’t be able to have much for growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right, so if you if you had you know really poor if people really anxious all the time they’re not going to feel safe to explore right so there’s a definite link between the two, we think embedding the skills around both of these is really, really powerful.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And it’s yes, a lot of really interesting interesting links in there right anything else, want to add there about the kind of connections between those.

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Ryan Curl: yeah and I think it’s kind of reminiscent of our kelly’s comment to that you know isn’t a mindset really about me as a person, and not.

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Ryan Curl: Mrs like safety is a power, you know my brand interact with others, this more social relationship.

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Ryan Curl: And so I think the key component there too, as a as a culture that encourages a growth mindset right we call it growth mindset culture.

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Ryan Curl: Which is a crucial component of your ability to maintain a growth mindset and to act on it in your environment, and so, like, for example.

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Ryan Curl: You know one thing you need to be able to do is to share your mistakes to have a growth mindset, because you need to be able to learn.

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Ryan Curl: need to be able to learn from people who you know, can give you useful information.

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Ryan Curl: But if you’re not comfortable doing that you might say, you don’t have psychological safety or you might say, you know you don’t have a growth mindset culture right which is, which is to your point, every time, these things are are.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: ya know interesting you know to to olivia’s point there and then we’ll get into the science of bit maybe take a couple of questions, then we get into science, but so olivia’s point like.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: This is sort of what I was saying earlier, like you know, giving people the concept can be helpful, but to really shift someone’s mindset quite broadly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is you really kind of want to learn this in layers and we’ve been thinking about this a lot literally for 10 years you know, the first layer

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is kind of just shifting from really focusing on outcomes to valuing progress.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, for us, the first layer is is getting people to think in terms of not you know, did you do something, did you deliver a result, but where were you Where are you Where are you going.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So it’s always be thinking about the learning journey and in any context shifting to learning itself.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right that’s the first kind of prime and ideally what you want to do is have like a team thinking about that for a week, like the best way to learn this as an intact team or a cohort.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, working together on this concept for at least a week, maybe two weeks right, what is it to value progress.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And really think about continual learning right the second then there’s another layer, which is how do we get people to experiment.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, so now you value in progress and how do we get people to really experiment powerfully.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Try things you know, let go of looking perfect and then again spend a little time with that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The third one, is how do you then really ask for feedback and get input from others with what you’re doing so you’re really in this dynamic so we’ve seen those three things like when you learn them one time.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: can be super super powerful and that really embeds that deeper growth mindset we don’t actually have any data on just interesting on how much.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: People will have the habit just from a light kind of touch without those three deep habits, I don’t think we have any data on that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So all the data i’ve been giving you is on people who’ve learned the three specific habits, but anyway Ryan tell us a bit more about the science.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I know you did a little bit of a refresh on some of these topics take us away on some of the things that you’ve been finding that you think are really interested in.

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Ryan Curl: and actually one of those David.

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Ryan Curl: Just to kind of piggyback off what you were saying every you know we don’t have the full set of data there one recent thing that came out that was are really influenced your work was shown that.

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Ryan Curl: as little as an hour growth mindset intervention can have massive benefits which, which is really incredible and was really surprised at the field so many you know.

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Ryan Curl: Obviously, we want to dig in deeper and to really support learners through this process and pick up on habits, but.

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Ryan Curl: Even something as small as and our intervention can have really drastic impact, so that was published just just a couple years ago as well.

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Ryan Curl: But one of the things that was that came up that really struck me that I think is important, and maybe it.

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Ryan Curl: conflicts with some misconceptions people have about a growth mindset is that or things that are reminiscent of a growth mindset is that you know if i’m if i’m trying so many new things i’m leaving myself i’m going.

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Ryan Curl: To make more errors going to make more mistakes and there’s going to be a cost associated with those things.

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Ryan Curl: And maybe there’s some truth to that in certain contexts, but what’s been coming out recently and in these really important domains.

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Ryan Curl: Is that if you have a growth mindset you actually make less errors overall because you’re getting the most out of the errors that you make, whereas if you have a fixed mindset.

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Ryan Curl: you’re not learning as quickly and you’re going to continue making the same errors over and over again so maybe that’s not such a surprise, but the.

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Ryan Curl: In one context that this came up and was a neonatal resuscitation course and they showed that those that were going through this course that had a growth mindset made far fewer mistakes which you know the implications of that I think are pretty clear.

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Ryan Curl: What other example to that I think it’s really important that came out just a couple of years ago is.

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Ryan Curl: That heavy a growth mindset increases workplace satisfaction, overall, but they took a deeper look into in what circumstances this plays out.

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Ryan Curl: and one that really resonated with me and I think it was mentioned in the comments as well, the link to di.

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Ryan Curl: Is that you actually are, if you are exposed, or the victim of prejudice or bias and you have to navigate that in your workplace which ideally you wouldn’t have to, but we know that that happens.

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Ryan Curl: If you have a growth mindset you actually have far better outcomes navigating that process and it’s it’s not 100% clear why that is, but I think it’s something like.

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Ryan Curl: If I believe that I can change, and I can grow and get better, and I believe that about other people someone who treats me poorly.

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Ryan Curl: I will treat them as someone who you know, has made a mistake and maybe deserve repercussions for that, but also can change right until I can maintain my sense of belonging and my sense of.

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Ryan Curl: relatedness with these people within my organization, even with the situations that ideally wouldn’t happen.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah that’s really interesting but I wouldn’t want that to be kind of used the wrong way.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Now there’s a.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Potential for that to kind of be misused, but it is really interesting and I just want to comment on that one of the trends that we’ve seen in the last couple of years is organizations coming to us saying hey I want you to give us the best.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The best possible thinking on on transforming our dei you know practice and world increasingly we’re starting with with solution go grow we’re starting with like growth mindset as a foundation.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And for the Di world diversity equity inclusion like starting with getting everyone open to you know being wrong and to wanting other people’s opinions, and you know really learning like clearly that’s a that’s a really fantastic.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: fertile ground even put all soil right to then do other things in terms of bias and inclusion, I think, so you know if you if an organization has the kind of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The the willingness of courage, we think that’s a really great place to start.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then go into like learning, you know how to actually mitigate bias and then go into learning inclusion and then you know, encouraging voices this kind of thing so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s it’s it’s a really powerful foundation with di space, but really all the references as well, yes, what else, what else has been coming up in the in the research.

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Ryan Curl: yeah so one thing that came up to in terms of you know it’s enough someone from an individual perspective, but from a organizational progress in a cultural perspective.

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Ryan Curl: Is you know they did this experiment that I thought was kind of neat where.

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Ryan Curl: They had a bunch of participants and they gave them hypothetical mission statements that were you know that were set to be indicative of an organizational mission statement.

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Ryan Curl: And they were all equal quality let’s say, but they were reminiscent of a fixed mindset culture versus a growth mindset culture, so these were things like.

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Ryan Curl: You know, we thrive off of our we we thrive off of developing our employees versus we thrive off of our talented employees.

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Ryan Curl: Growth mindset versus a fixed mindset, respectively, and what they showed is regardless of.

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Ryan Curl: priming them with this language of a growth and fixed mindset participants were much more excited by the growth mindset mission statements and and and we’re more.

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Ryan Curl: Far more likely to believe that they would be committed to that organization, but they were trust that organization as well, so it’s interesting that and just you know something is kind of superficial maybe as a mission statement.

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Ryan Curl: says a lot about you know what talent you’ll bring in you know what candidate to get and then, finally, they wanted to actually see if this was.

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Ryan Curl: played out in reality, so they pulled.

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Ryan Curl: Employees from fortune 1000 companies and they ask them questions about the culture of their organization and whether or not they had more of a growth mindset so fixed mindset.

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Ryan Curl: Without using that note that language and they found that those that perceived their organization to have more of a growth mindset culture.

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Ryan Curl: were more innovative, they were more trustworthy and they had more integrity, so I think the overarching point is, you know, not only is it.

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Ryan Curl: beneficial for organizations to have a growth mindset culture but it’s what people want they want to work in a place that will develop them that will treat them right.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Absolutely.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I remember sitting with the folks the learning team and IBM a couple of years ago and they had just mountains of data.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: More than anyone has ever had about like what makes people engaged and performing all this stuff and they just said there’s a huge outlier.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In the data that no one really knows, which is the number one variable for engagement retention for performance it’s just how much people are learning.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And if they’re learning a ton they’re happy motivated engaged and you know reminds me of the progress principle from Theresa may Allah.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: From Harvard just like you feeling like you’re making progress, you know but learning it’s different but learning feeling like you’re learning feeling like you’re growing.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is you know, is its own reward you get a greater sense of certainty grades it’s well Tommy greatest hits of status, you know it’s intrinsically rewarding but so that’s that’s really interesting.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A couple of couple of comments.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Coming up in the chat just to mention that I think Evan who’s the head of marketing put in the in the chat a link to a knowledge Center that we put together on growth mindset, so if you’re an aficionado really want to.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Understand growth mindset lots of our writings that studies have webinars all sorts of things if you kind of want to you know study up on this.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s it’s such an interesting it’s such an interesting area yeah any other studies Ryan, that you wanted to begin to dig into.

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Ryan Curl: um I think that covers it um let’s see if i’m missing anything got my notes here.

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Ryan Curl: yeah so, the more the one piece here, too, is that there may be the overarching point to is that.

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Ryan Curl: You know and David gave us nice kind of breakdown of the history of growth mindset over the years, one of the if we kind of narrow the timeline there in the last like maybe 15 years.

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Ryan Curl: You know a lot of growth mindset research was happening in education and academic context, which was really valuable, but maybe didn’t directly.

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Ryan Curl: resonate with you know the workforce, but what’s happened over the last 10 years or so, is that there’s so much of this work being done within organizations which is enormous value.

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Ryan Curl: Increases in work engagement performance, the ability and the benefit of receiving feedback all of these things are starting to be done within organizations to showing that, not surprisingly, the massive benefits of growth mindset culture.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah beautiful that’s a good segue to thinking about organizations, so you know as we think about change at scale.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and helping organizations transform to more of a fixed have more of a growth mindset culture, did I say fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: As we think about helping them transform to a much more about growth mindset culture is this, you know, three kinds of work to do, one is you know getting everyone talking about it, and when you know when such an adele started.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: At Microsoft he made growth mindset one of these platforms and some of the very first articles that he wrote about his philosophy and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: kind of what you know was literally about growth mindset and all the reading he does, and how he’s a learner not a knower and he he just talked about it over and over and over every interaction with everyone so he made a real priority as CEO.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To do this, and you know we’ve working with Pam from Ivanov, the CEO of evernote there you know students similar thing like just talking about this as a real priority.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Across 50,000 people so so you’ve got to make this concept of priority, first of all, you know lots of sorts of CEOs but lots of CEOs have really seen that this is a powerful construct.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That works, but then you’ve got to do the work to build habits and what we found is you know one habit, at a time over time it’s powerful.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: For us, a minimum viable product is is just like three or four weeks of learning every week and we see tremendous tremendous results.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In three or four weeks of learning these habits, especially when it’s done at scale and you could literally in fact 100,000 people in a month to have a growth mindset, we did that an Intel chip maker some years back.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: went to all 110,000 people in the same month embedding a growth mindset and some tremendous results so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Then the third part we haven’t talked much about his systems, and you know ryan’s talking about like the mission statements and values of this, I can look at a company’s kind of DNA people DNA and immediately see all the fixed mindset stuff in there that’s accidental.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, we want to hire the person with the most possible experience for the role you know that’s really fixed mindset, yet you want to hire someone that’s going to be an exciting stretch role.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Not someone who’s not everything before right, so I can immediately see as I look at companies, you know even their web page.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: As they talk about the people all the things that accidentally fixed mindset so in your language we accidentally prime for fixed or growth.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But also the actual processes with which we hire with which we promote with which we give feedback is a big one, the way we do performance management is a really big one.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The way we do succession planning, like all of it, you can really see a company that has a growth mindset philosophy, you know underneath that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And it makes a huge difference so generally the what we’ve seen is we kind of start with you know, a briefing for.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The CEO and top team to kind of get their head around this thing a priority, then we might do work organization wide on these habits to scale them and then we might come back after that and really start to partner with the organizational systems.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We might start with performance management or promotion or other systems and and really help them get these systems right we’ve got to really find assessment for that as well, so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: that’s you know you got to think about the whole system so it’s really a lot about habits, but you know you want to think about you know getting leaders to care, you know building habits and working on the systems it’s really all three.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then just a bit of a plug for not going back to invest in learning as we think about this.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is a very exciting slide to ask because it’s the first time we’ve ever had hot data of like versus like on different different solutions and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know what I want to say is everyone’s excited to come back together right now amazing get them back together get them working around each other, once a month, maybe.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Maybe more, but you know don’t force people back in but folks who want to be together get them back in.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: don’t try to do learning in person again would be my strong recommendation because he you have.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know virtual, but you have two types of virtual learning very significantly more effective at activating habits than in person.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Now factor in the ridiculously higher scale and lower cost and you kind of crazy to put learning back in person, so do other things in person, have.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: working around each other days or weeks have social events, people are really you know excited to see each other but don’t make your learning slower more expensive and worse.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Because people want to be together That would be my thing because you could literally impacts thousand 10,000 hundred thousand people in the same month.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: With either of these two different learning options and it’d be much better than putting the entire company in a workshop, which would literally never happen.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So just just a word on that my team could maybe put in the chat the piece we wrote on this in fast company it’s called the fastest way to change a company so it’s a great time to not go back to in person workshops.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And maybe go back to social drinks.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Instead it’s just about learning about conferences there’s nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with a conference get incredible networking.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, like social learning social interactions you know you get all sorts of great experiences, but don’t do learning events in person that are really significant.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Those are much better, but you know networking events knowledge sharing conferences those things to be wonderful in person.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But you might find they’re actually more effective, as with part of them in virtual maybe part of it in person and then maybe a tale, you know, every week for a month that is his workshop so yeah it’s amazing data I love this slide it took only 24 years to build it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s it’s really tells the story powerfully so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know I would encourage you to think about that and then something that we’re thinking about then we’ll take some questions last five minutes or so, but something we’re thinking about.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: This came from some conversations.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: With Microsoft, is that you know they’re really embedded these things into like their feedback processes into the system and since the hiring another really got a great example of a growth mindset culture, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, by the way they doing incredibly well.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I can’t say that all of us, but you know growth mindsets really woven into so much of what they do now.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And they’re thinking about Okay, but it’s still you know people could adapt faster still people could learn faster and we’ve been playing with this idea of there’s a growth mindset there’s also a skill set and we’ve been thinking about like the specific habits that you need to.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To literally be better at learning across the board so it’s it’s more it’s kind of a little click down on.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: On kind of learning and growing so it’s it’s like a double click on growth mindset, but specifically like you know the ways that you can learn things much, much faster and the real neuroscience on that so we’re you know we’re concept in that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And kind of thinking about that specifically going forward so just I mean i’m just curious if that’s of interest you just put the words growth skill set in the chat.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We may come back and do a session on that kind of do a bit of live research on what those things look like just what growth, a skill set in the chat if that’s of interest.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: i’m curious to see how much energy there is around that or excuse me coming up to kind of the end here i’m going to turn the slides off for a little bit let’s take some questions and we’ve got about maybe five minutes or so we’ll make sure you get back to your next thing in time.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Questions what’s coming in, you could put them either in the Q amp a or in the chat I see lots of people want growth skill set that’s really interesting.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, will we may get to work on that do a research session and invite all of you and others along to brainstorm together with us, which is really, really fun.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah so Questions Ryan there’s a couple a couple of that you see there in the chat I think the strengths, one is really interesting from Rebecca.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A there’s a whole lot of interesting kind of tussle between a strengths approach and a growth mindset approach.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And sometimes it’s hard to kind of unpack those two and think about them.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: i’m not sure if you’ve thought about a lot, but you know strengths strengths approach is more about kind of work out the things are really good at you know focus on those.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A growth mindset approach is more like you know you could get better in any in any domain, do you see those kind of competing or supporting each other, how do you see the connections between those.

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Ryan Curl: You know I would see those supporting each other, you know the reality is you can’t.

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Ryan Curl: You know.

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Ryan Curl: focus your attention on every single possible skill that could benefit you right, so you want to.

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Ryan Curl: Have the belief that whatever you choose to pursue that you can actually be successful in that, but you also want some ability to to pinpoint you know what’s the most pragmatic thing for me to focus on right.

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Ryan Curl: I think that’s important too, because you need to be motivated to do this, and so, what are you what are you passionate about what will really benefit you where did you where does your energy really pointed towards to, so I think those things go hand in hand yeah.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Fantastic thanks very much learning agility and growth mindset are there overlaps in there, well, I mean I think they’re very strong mobile Apps in learning agility the way kind of some of the competency companies to find it I think there’s there’s a lot of overlap so what’s your perspective.

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Ryan Curl: yeah that’s absolutely right, I think you know I see growth mindset, as the foundation for your ability to learn envy edge on my way to right, I mean, especially now, in the.

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Ryan Curl: In the context of a big change happening quickly that seems to be you know the the norm, these days, he having the foundation of a growth mindset allows for the agility into adjusted return so.

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Ryan Curl: yeah that’s it that way yeah.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: amazing there’s lots to lots to say there, so I was asking about the difference between the two virtual methods i’ll do that, very briefly, so, but each of them are 30 day experience.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The one that’s called a high five high impact virtual experience that’s essentially a cohort 2030 people once a week for three weeks.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: For about an hour sometimes 90 minutes, which is better, but 60 or 90 minutes and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: cohort 20 to 30 going deep one habit, at a time, so the first week is literally on you know value progress second week on experiment.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Really really powerful can be in tech teams, or you know cohorts and that could scale quite nicely, but the other version that distributed learning solution dealers can scale massively.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And that’s essentially pushing out content to people managers to share with their teams every week from us and giving those people managers tools to share this with the teams have the conversations and, interestingly, not a huge difference between those two learning modalities.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Both of them significantly better than.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: than in person learning so even just putting out and, by the way, they’re not a content it’s five minutes it’s a five minute video once a week and a one page guide.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, putting that out to people managers that you know massive scale and getting the teams locally to talk about it, we find we can get you know very close to three when our workshops.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In that way, so really, really, really interesting to be able to follow the data and and see that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah right any other questions before we we go to some announcements, but folks stay on if you’re going to jump off just.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Maybe my team can put a quick poll up so we know how to follow up with you.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So before folks jump off just click that Pole, so we know kind of not to follow up with you at all or different things that we can follow.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: grow by the way, is our growth mindset solution it’s kind of a second oldest solution up to connect a really, really powerful one so click one of those Ryan any other questions you wanted to answer it before yeah we we do announcements.

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Ryan Curl: have so many great ones in here, unfortunately we can’t get to all of them, you know someone mentioned.

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Ryan Curl: Why the growth mindset literature in academia might not translate to organizations and I think it, I mean, I think, really, it does, I think that’s that’s one key thing is that you know, ultimately, we want.

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Ryan Curl: Of course, an academic context is focused on learning that’s the primary goal we want that goal to existing organizations as well, so that research very much does apply, but fortunately we don’t have to rely on it entirely because there’s.

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Ryan Curl: Plenty of new research coming out in the organizational context as well, said that there’s so many great questions and hero, but i’ll leave it there.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah yeah maybe capture them and we’ll see if there’s some plans and we can write, we should do some more writing up on this, I think you’ll makes me want to do, like a whole growth mindset day.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Later in the year, where we just dig into the real science and practice and it’s such an important topic, I think it needs a lot more attention.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Thanks Ryan so much, I feel free to jump off, I really appreciate your brilliant brain i’m sure everyone else does it’s so great to have you on the team really appreciate everything that you do thank.

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Ryan Curl: You everyone.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right, a couple of quick announcements one really important one is is we’re running a.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Whole we clean a master class for that we may end up pulling it up an insight level something else but we’re running a three month program for ddi practitioners.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: It starting in the fall, it was originally started in June it’s going to start early in the fall, maybe one of my team can put it in the chat.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But it’s it’s a program to spend literally three months with peers and it’s all high quality peers, who are internal practitioners.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Three months learning about the deepest science of TDI.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: we’re super psyched about it it’s a new format for learning because it’s just so much science and so much great stuff to the into we wanted to do that will probably do one on growth mindset and kind of learning and leadership more broadly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: i’d say into next year, so we’ll do a similar kind of master class format on leadership and learning.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That encompasses growth mindset will probably do one separately on performance but right now there’s a dui one.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You can apply for, that is, it is internal practitioners only not external consultants, but it’s incredible cohort of people i’ve seen the participants incredible cohort of people coming together.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: From from all sorts of different organizations, a couple other quick announcements just you know, speaking of data we’re really psyched to be able to collect and share much richer data now the number that you see in the middle of those.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: circles, is the percentage of large audiences applying a habit weekly now.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, in other words top left for decide 78% of people weekly are doing something about mitigating bias, and this is two months after program so we’re getting you know deeper and deeper into assessing long term.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: habit activation across lots of lots of different solutions, the one missing from here is FLEX just because we haven’t collected enough data yet.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But FLEX is a super popular one right now, obviously that’s about hybrid management and it’s a really, really important one actually just throw FLEX in the chat if you’re interested in learning more about FLEX we kind of didn’t talk about that much but.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Growth mindset we actually teach at the start of FLEX it’s one of the first things that we teach.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So in the FLEX program is literally like you’re going to have to open your mindset and then you’re also going to have to give people more autonomy.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: was a throw FLEX in the chat appearance of the learning more about that program will will get that back to you in one way or another, but you know this data is really exciting there’s a ton a ton more data that we’re able to study, which is, which is really, really awesome.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: My team ship with this in the chat as well we’ve got a study we’d love your input on autonomy we’re trying to study and understand the types of autonomy that have the biggest impact.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Really really interesting question to ask what really has the biggest impact, so my team could throw this in the chat.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That link in will come in a moment we’ll we’d love you to participate that and and share that as well there, it is thanks Evan so the autonomy one.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: If you’re from an organization and interested in following our work more closely, we have a group meeting every two weeks virtually for an hour with me and some of our other researchers.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We dive deep into all sorts of things we learn from each other, a ton there’s no cost to it, you need to be from an organization and in some kind of talent role it’s called the insiders community, so you can apply to join the inside, as Community my team again we’ll put that in the chat.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And it’s a wonderful community that meets every two weeks virtually focus on all sorts of different topics.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then, finally, we are hiring we have a bunch of open places all the time neuro leadership.com forward slash careers.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We were fascinating organization to partner with us, you can imagine.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and take a look at korea’s if you’re interested in that, and finally there’s a podcast so lots of the sessions we’ve done in fact most of the sessions we’ve done are actually in the podcast encourage you to.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: subscribe to that and check that out there’s all sorts of amazing topics in there that’s it for me thank you so much for being here, I hope you got five minutes to get to the next thing.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and definitely the contact person is all there in the careers page so lots of information by country just just go to the green space there.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Thanks everyone take care of ourselves look after each other, keep doing what matters, thanks to my team to the great work behind the scenes bye bye.

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Shelby Wilburn: Social platforms and regardless of what platform you’re on, let us know where you’re joining in from in the comments section.

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Shelby Wilburn: Speaking of comments, if you are on zoom make sure that you select all panelists and attendees or everyone, so that we can all see your comments in the conversation So where are you joining in from today drop it in the chat for us let’s see.

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Shelby Wilburn: We have Toronto Ohio Montreal we’re all over Mexico Austin nice amazing we love our global community.

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Shelby Wilburn: For our regulars it’s great to have you back for those of you that are new to your brain at work, live, welcome to the party.

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Shelby Wilburn: For some context, it is a title of one of the best selling books by our CEO and co founder Dr David rock and it’s also the name of our blog and podcast.

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Shelby Wilburn: We are recording today’s session so if you’re interested in a replay be on the lookout for an email later today.

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Shelby Wilburn: That email is also going to include a survey for feedback, as well as a number of resources that are aligned to today’s conversation.

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Shelby Wilburn: Now, as far as sharing slides we reserve that for our current clients and corporate members only, however, if you’re interested in becoming one, let us know in the chat.

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Shelby Wilburn: We also suggest turning off your phones closing out of your messaging Apps and email, so you can get the most out of today’s discussion.

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Shelby Wilburn: grab a pen and paper to do some notes as well, it helps with the audio and video quality too.

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Shelby Wilburn: And we love interaction so again feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us, we really love to see that in the chat because we love to engage with you all.

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Shelby Wilburn: Now as we’re about to kick off get settled in grab some coffee some water and stretch as we dive in deeper into this topic.

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Shelby Wilburn: But before we do that let’s introduce our speakers for today, so our first guest panelists is a long time neuroscience junkie.

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Shelby Wilburn: He pursued this interest at the University of buffalo where he earned his Ms in neuroscience as well as completed his PhD in cognitive psychology at Syracuse university.

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Shelby Wilburn: Now, as a team Member and ally his work focuses on interpreting and translating scientific research into actionable insights for organizations.

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Shelby Wilburn: he uses his expertise in cognitive psychology specifically in human memory and decision making and advanced computational analysis to advise inform and support the creation of our scalable solutions, please welcome senior researcher here, Dr Ryan curl Ryan it’s great to have you.

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Ryan Curl: going to show you it’s great to be here.

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Shelby Wilburn: And our next guest is an aussie to new yorker who coined the term neuro leadership when he co founded and ally over two decades ago.

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Shelby Wilburn: With a professional doctorate for successful books under his name and a multitude of by lines, ranging from Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more.

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Shelby Wilburn: Of warm welcome for our co founder and CEO of the neuro leadership institute Dr David rock David great to have you here, as always, and passing it over to you.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Thanks Shelby thanks very much we’ve been experimenting with a few different formats and today we’re going to do something a little different.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: i’m going to share a bit of research and history and background and context and then ryan’s going to come in and kind of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: do some of the deepest science and we’ll have a little bit of a conversation.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: With Ryan as a guest so we’re experimenting all the time, as you follow us you’ll see that and we’re excited to start to share with you.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Something we put together for the summit, but we’ve gone deeper on this and it’s really looking back over a decade literally a decade of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Helping companies, develop a growth mindset and this is, this is a topic that’s near and dear to us.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And I think you’ll find it hopefully you’ll find it really fascinating and give you some context to kind of what the concept is and how it works and why it works and all that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So firstly the concept of fixing growth mindset it’s actually a long, long history, and it goes, all the way back literally thousands of years with the early philosophers were were noticing that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The beliefs, we have about our abilities had an impact on those abilities.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But it was in the 70s, that academic started to really define this work, there was a whole body of research many, many papers published talking about entity theory versus incremental theory.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And if you’re an academic buff and you’ve got to look that stuff up dig in and see the original work, it was fascinating that they found in a way back then that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The belief that you had about a domain, we had this very, very big impact on your performance in that domain, they called it into the incremental there Carol dweck.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: wrote a famous book called mindsets she kind of popularized the work from the 70s, she started to also do great research on this is also a researcher.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: She did a lot of great work bringing this into schools and then in 2012 we started to work with this originally with Heidi brand house and who is actually one of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: One of Carol dweck students Heidi joined us for a number of years, and she helped us to develop the concept of organizational growth mindset and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Since that time we’ve become the really the leading global practitioner and organizational practitioner in this space and i’ll give you a sense of kind of what’s happened in the last decade and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then we’ll define growth mindset, a little more and then i’ll talk about what we’ve learned over this decade, as well.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So firstly we’ve done a lot of research, a lot more than is kind of them that we share necessarily on growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So it’s a scattering of different things here at the top, you can see more some industry pieces that we’ve written in HP are in quotes.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A number of different journals but down the bottom here what you see.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Three industry reports that are pretty significant research on the first one their growth mindset culture, what is the growth mindset culture undefined understanding it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: illustrating it and we did a whole research project on what we should be doing about performance management, when you weave in growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And we do a lot of consulting and advising on that space now and then we more recently published something on how growth mindset supports organizations through disruption was that very prescient or what.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And a number of the organizations we’ve worked with before the pandemic found that having growth mindset as a tool.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To help them tremendously through the last few years, and then the two journal papers, the central one is organizational growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And i’ll come back to that a little bit later it’s a it’s really the only paper that looks at what is growth mindset in our organization and if you’re interested in this area that’s something to really, really dig into spend some time on.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then the other one is is probably the most important habit to build around growth mindset which is around asking for feedback.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And we did a whole body of research on feedback and it turns out that asking for feedback is a very powerful growth mindset tool but.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We can dig into that if you’re interested, so we we spent the last 10 years doing a lot of research, both at the level of like How does this work in the brain.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: How does this work in organizations, how does this work in the systems and it’s been a really, really fascinating journey now separately to that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: we’ve been we’ve been helping organizations build these strategies these rollouts now and I saw it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: At a recent summit in February, which was virtual we had the outgoing CEO of Procter and Gamble the top left there David Taylor.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Talking about the impact of growth mindset on their organization, we help them a PNG roll it out across the whole business it’s a fascinating case study and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I think my team can probably put that session in the chat or if not, we could send it out, but really fascinating session to watch him talking about the impact of growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: On PNG, but you can see some of the organizations we’ve worked with many of these for many years.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: tracking the data assessing the impact trying different experiments and really embedding the concept across both priorities habits and systems.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: across these organizations so it’s been a fascinating journey, I think we probably should write a whole paper on everything that we’ve learned on.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Over this time so let’s let’s dig in what is the concept if you’re new to a very simply, you know goes to the fixed mindset is the ways of thinking about.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Our personal abilities, including our beliefs, about how much our skills can be improved over time now very domain specific so you can have a growth mindset about.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, writing music, but a fixed mindset about reading music, which is strange, but true, you can have a growth mindset about you know one instrument.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: musical instrument, a fixed mindset about another it’s quite domain specific, but what happens is, we have an overarching belief set.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: about our ability in in all these different domains that we participate in a domain might be, you know just generally doing work or it might be, you know, working with a particular type of customer.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Or it might be dealing with change and we might have a mindset about change so it’s very domain, specific and we have this.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Mostly unconscious unnoticed set of beliefs about our abilities in that domain now it’s one or two it’s it’s it’s either a fixed mindset or growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The fixed mindset is basically believing that in that domain you’re either born smart or you’re not right so it’s a musical instrument you’re like you know just not a.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Not a you know woodwind person i’m much more piano kind of puts it right you just you just decided you’re not that kind of person.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Therefore there’s not much point, putting an effort right it’s no point trying not, by the way, feedback is dangerous now in that case.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You don’t want feedback, if you are intrinsically not good at something stretch goals here a bad right if you’ve decided you’re not a.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, would win kind of person to music you like you’re not going to try a completely new type of instrument right.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and other people who are good at something actually make you less confident So if you see an amazing clarinet player you’re like well, I know, good a clarinet and i’m not going to try any other instrument so it’s it’s interesting that the fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: leaves you kind of not wanting to get better and even when you see a great mentor or people give you feedback it falls on deaf ears.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know if you intrinsically believe you’re not good at you know, working from home, for example, you intrinsically believe that’s not you.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Then you know people telling you how great it is you just don’t hear and people giving you ideas people giving you feedback.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, seeing other people good at all of that just doesn’t work right so it’s really important to the mindset that’s fixed is is you know literally fixed we don’t kind of open up the growth mindset is this belief that we can improve.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But there is a belief that effort matters feedback, in this case is sought after you’re much more likely to you know try getting feedback stretch goals with good.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and other people’s success is a chance to actually learn so you’re much more likely to reach out, and you know learn from the people, so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s very interesting, you know, there are these two mindsets we have it, for you know we have about everything, but it’s it has a real effect on the brain.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The stuff has a real effects on the brain moment to moment as fascinating so i’ll slow down to give you a sort of a sense of some of the studies and then Ryan can come on a moment.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And to kind of flesh this out of it, but what we see in studies, is that you can prime people.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In the lab you can prime people, which is like nudging them one way or the other, like fixed or growth, quite simply, like you give people.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A task on a computer and you say hey people who’ve done this task before they seem to get better and better as they go right that’s that person now has a growth mindset about that task you can cry tribes and other people and say.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: hey in this task people seem to hit a plateau they kind of try for a while they they quickly kind of level off they don’t seem to get much better.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And what we see is, as you as you primed with these mindsets people’s attention literary is different with eye tracking.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Software you can actually see people just not really paying attention to the task when you have this fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s really interesting another big set of studies is around errors and mistakes and what we see is that when you have a fixed mindset and you make a mistake.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Your brain gets much more activated the threat Center in particular gets much more activated then when you have a growth mindset and make a mistake.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And what’s interesting also is when you have a growth mindset make a mistake, you actually start activating more your pre motor cortex, which is a planning network.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: you’re actually thinking about what you would do differently next time you’re not doing that, when you have a fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you know, whenever an upstate comes along and you have a fixed mindset you just get really annoyed and you don’t think about anything differently right so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s really you know, impacting like attention and cognitive control, and you know where we put focus and, of course, how we interpret success and failures.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: is really, really central so it’s not just a you know, a concept like you can literally see these things happening in the brain as they as they occur.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right Ryan, you want to come on tell us a little bit more about kind of some of the networks involved and some of the story behind some of this give us a give us a few minutes of some of the deeper science happening here.

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Ryan Curl: Sure, thanks, David, I just want to reiterate one point of yours, that I think is really.

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Ryan Curl: really critical, which is that your mindset can be primed in that way, and I think when some people hear a lot about you know the neuro neuro activity research they’re like.

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Ryan Curl: It it makes them think about this kind of trades like either, I have a growth mindset, or I don’t because my brain fires, the square or fires that way.

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Ryan Curl: But the reality is with the certain crimes and with this different perspective, your neuro connectivity between areas of your brain can change that’s absolutely plastic so.

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Ryan Curl: I think that’s an important point and it’s and it goes to what you were saying before so in terms of the little bit more to add to the neural activity.

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Ryan Curl: it’s really important to consider how these different areas of your brain are firing together how they’re connected with each other and the three most important areas of the brain that i’ve shown to fire really.

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Ryan Curl: more strongly together if you have a growth mindset in these situations that David talked about when you’re potentially making errors it really goes through how you’re.

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Ryan Curl: Switching your mentality from oh this you know this error is a threat, I need to kind of you know, avoid.

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Ryan Curl: attending to it versus know this is a learning opportunity and I can, and I need to really pinpoint how I can get the most out of these errors correct them in the future and move forward.

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Ryan Curl: And so the areas of the brain that are responsible for that are DORSAL lateral prefrontal cortex which is really the error monitoring Center along with a few other things, but, in this context really error monitoring.

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Ryan Curl: Our DORSAL anterior cingulate cortex which is kind of like it’s probably one of the areas of the brain that’s most complicated to explain.

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Ryan Curl: But it’s more or less like what is the bigger context here how do I understand how my behaviors are enacting in the world in this moment.

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Ryan Curl: And so there’s a strong connection between those areas if you have a growth mindset which is to say i’m making a mistake let’s pinpoint exactly what i’m doing in this context to make sure I can adjust accordingly.

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Ryan Curl: And then the crucial last piece of this puzzle is its connection the DORSAL anterior cingulate cingulate cortex is connection with the stride.

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Ryan Curl: And so I think most people are familiar with this try it on which is kind of our reward Center right, this is, I don’t mean process goes through that dictates the value that we that we perceived or any sort of interaction in our in our lives.

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Ryan Curl: And so what happens with that connection is to say Okay, let me kind of draw the big picture i’m making mistakes my DORSAL lateral prefrontal cortex is active.

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Ryan Curl: Understanding the context of those mistakes that’s the DORSAL anterior cingulate cortex and then the real cherry on top, is the connection with the stride and which is to say i’m being rewarded for learning.

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Ryan Curl: This is good, this is a positive thing that’s happening here, and what we know from you know typical opera and conditioning experiments, is that you know behaviors that are rewarded will continue so treating.

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Ryan Curl: Mistakes as learning opportunities having that in your brain fire accordingly will continue and it all, it will you know increase in that way.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: that’s great thanks Ryan that’s fascinating and folks are asking questions that are asking questions, the answer is, you can.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And i’ll answer one actually that came in from Nancy the it will answer one or two of them will will dig in further but.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s interesting office a lot, you know other assessments and we actually have an organizational assessment that assesses all your talent practices from like hirings promotion performance, if everything.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And we can actually say hey how much volume systems in your company align with growth mindset and often, the answer is, they don’t very well.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In terms of an individual assessment we’ve been really obsessing with teaching people like just enough that they can absolutely pick this in themselves and others really quickly and i’ll talk more about that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But we’ve been able to see that when you teach people kind of just enough, they can really quickly on the fly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: identify fixing growth mindsets and actually data we’ve got from thousands of people is about a quarter of people when they learn this through us about a quarter of people are noticing a fixed or growth mindset daily and shifting it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Will they know the noticing a fixed mindset daily and shifting your growth mindset, at least once a day.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So about a quarter of people least once a day so that’s what we’ve been anchored on is how do we get better and better and better at kind of people self assessing in the moment and noticing it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: versus any kind of formal assessment as well, because the other irony of an assessment about fixing growth mindset is its kind of fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To have a an assessment, in a sense, which is ironic so i’m asking is mindset domain specific very domain specific even subdomains so I try to explain that before very badly so it’s not like we have a you know fixed mindset about work that would be impossible, you wouldn’t survive.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And no one has a growth mindset about you know work again and will be, you know there’s sections of work we’re going to have different types of mindsets.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Absolutely so it’s um Ryan can talk a little bit more about that we’re going to get into sort of some of the new research in a minute, but I just want to kind of give you a little bit of a sense that this is a real thing.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: It really impacts brain processing, but the really cool thing which i’ll show you in a minute.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is it it like even a little bit of good quality education done properly, has a huge impact much bigger than we predicted.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: When we went into this i’ll show you some of the data, I mean a quarter of people every day noticing a fixed mindset shifting to wrote this amazing.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But I tell you how many people do it 123 times a week like about 90% of folks that learned this about 90 to 95 sometimes for said.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Every week at least 123 times are actually noticing and shifting their mindset, so when you teach this well and organization it actually has a real impact.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: On engagement because engagements definitely trying to being more in this optimistic state it’s obviously enabling learning, but ultimately it’s helping everyone adapt faster.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Because in that growth mindset you dramatically more likely to you know also feedback set stretch goals adapt quickly you know deal with things you know, really, really different in one way to think about this is, you know if your.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Brain is going through a lot of change disruptive change, especially if you have that fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know you’re going to be thinking, what if i’m not good at this, you know how am I going to fail, maybe I don’t have the skills, yet to do hybrid management, you know.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I could make mistakes, others could do it better like if you have this fixed mindset about say hybrid you know management.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: that’s what you’re going to be thinking, but if you have this this growth mindset about hybrid management you’re like hey i’m not perfect, but I can get better I can always improve.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you know it’s a chance to practice and get better you know i’m getting better over time.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, particularly relevant with lots of change and when there’s like massive disruptive change and become like a critical skill to have.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To help you bring yourself back from you know the chaos, sometimes so really, really, really relevant in the pandemic and continuing to be.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And I know that organizations, including you know general mills and Microsoft and and PNG and others, but a lot of value from having this as part of their.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Not just their language but part of the habits that people had.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: week to week to week so let’s dig in further I want to, I want to share with you kind of some of the insights and maybe Ryan, maybe come back on this, I think it’s such a fascinating.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: conversation this one, I want to share with you and I think we’re going to work on a deeper piece on this, I want to share with you kind of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: What we’ve seen and maybe RON you can comment on kind of what jumps out to you, but the first thing that we’ve seen is it’s a little bit of teaching about this kind of gets people.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: doing something new that tends to stick, but not not for like a year, but if you get so basically teaching the concept over say an hour.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You, but if you teach it well you’ve got this overarching habit that embeds pretty quickly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Now what’s that overarching habit it’s basically noticing a fixed mindset shifting to growth.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right it’s going oh look at that i’ve got a fixed mindset about that and shifting to a growth mindset, so that that habit embeds pretty quickly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Over a lot of people like you know even 100,000 people, but the real benefit comes from going deeper, and there are three habits, then that build more slowly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That are really, really important and you want to build those one, at a time and i’ll show you those those are experiment value progress learned from others and we saw from our research, these are the most important habits to anchor on and really build one of the time.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: to really get people into the practice of experimenting into the practice of looking at progress in the practice of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Learning from others, particularly asking for feedback, so these these three things turned out to be really, really important.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you know you you, you certainly can get some benefit from just you know, a general talk on this, but you get a lot more benefit from really going deep.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and building these habits properly everything it was really interesting is that people find.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Immediate value like that afternoon, you know we do a session the morning like that afternoon, they start seeing this and finding value at work, and they also find a lot of value at home.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you know, in relation to their hobbies or sports their careers their interest, but also the kids you know comes up a lot people have a lot of big insights about parenting.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: All sorts of things, so it has this like universal impact that’s actually helpful and you get this immediate kind of face validity from teaching this that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That really, really, I guess, really creates by it and the other thing that we’ve seen our show you some of the data is that real change can scale to like I mean we’ve got.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Sites like 100,000 people, but it can also really stick and i’ll show you some data like six months later data it’s quite amazing I think i’ve got here.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So this is this is some examples of scale, you know 98% felt more effective, but 88% actually we’re shifting every week 123 times So these are thousands of people.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But we’ve got this site that we were able to go back to 500 people six months later we’re going to start to do that a lot more.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Now the really interesting question is the middle one because that’s kind of a test question, because no one was really discussing growth mindset before they learned this that was pretty much zero you know a few percent.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But what you see is six months later 86% were discussing growth mindset with others weekly weekly right now what’s interesting is that number was only just slightly north of 90%.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: literally a couple of weeks after the initiative so not much slippage, and this was this was a very, very large audience the sample size here was 500.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So not much slippage from you know immediately after the program to six months later, literally stealing you know engaging with this constantly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: really interesting and then the final one is it’s really interesting we’ve seen more and more and more that this is a really important and powerful foundation to all deeper kinds of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Learning initiatives change initiatives leadership initiatives culture initiatives like starting with growth mindset super powerful we started to think of it is as kind of like the soil.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That you’d put a plan to and right, the quality of the soil.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And you know really good quality soil doesn’t mean your plants will grow you go to the right plan to the right water in the right light all those things.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But if you have really good soil you got a really good chance of things growing right so growth mindsets kind of this foundation that you’ve got really good soil to to put ideas into, and you know ideas you put into a plant in that soil and much more likely to take.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Because people believe they can learn right because people are open to new ideas, because we will ask each other for input more right so that that foundation and Microsoft saw that years ago they put growth mindset without help you as the foundation of all their learning and culture.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And many, many other organizations have now started to do that as well, so those are the insights right anything you want to add there or gotta dig into.

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Ryan Curl: yeah I think the thing that’s coming to mind, for me, is you know we talked about how our growth mindset or a fixed mindset is domain specific.

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Ryan Curl: But it reminds me when we’re talking about you know these specific habits, you want to focus on.

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Ryan Curl: Is that there’s this new research that shows that not only to kind of add confusion and more confusion to the next, is that not only is it domain specific.

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Ryan Curl: But you can have aspects of a fixed mindset or a growth mindset, or you can act in a way that’s aligned with a fixed mindset or a growth mindset in any one domain so i’m like, for example.

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Ryan Curl: believe in theory that I can develop a skill in a certain context, but maybe I see my peers as.

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Ryan Curl: As competitors so i’m not learning from them instead of competing from them so some aspects of my perspective in my behavior in one context are aligned with a growth mindset and others with a fixed mindset.

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Ryan Curl: And so what we what’s been coming out in the scientific.

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Ryan Curl: Scientific research recently is that your self report of this of your mindset like yes, I think, in general, I have a growth mindset or no, I think I have a fixed mindset.

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Ryan Curl: Does it tell us all that much about what you’re actually going to do, and what benefits will come from them.

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Ryan Curl: So that’s why, when we focus on these key habits and really kind of like increasing the magnification on not just what you believe about yourself, but what actually are your are you doing.

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Ryan Curl: You know that’s how you get.

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Ryan Curl: A significant progress enough to retain an artwork.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right, you know it’s very you know interesting question from Isabella.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: take a moment to address.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then we’ll maybe we’ll get into the science, a little more I think that’s where we’re going yeah so interesting question from from Isabella and kind of the connection between psychological safety and growth mindset and interesting you know, like.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: For us, psychological safety means low threat state overall like people, or even a neutral to positive in their overall our static load.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: they’re feeling safe or if they’re if they’re anxious it’s a level of threat, like you know we got Level one threat, where they still feel very in control of their autonomy is pretty high and they’re able to really focus well.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So psychological safety is essentially like neutral slightly positive or slightly negative on the threat rewards scale and for us that’s kind of the sum total of all the different social threats and rewards coming in, so you can have high autonomy.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And and and high relatedness which is you know sense of connection with others.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But really a lot of uncertainty and it might be it can balance out, so what we see is that the two are really important together.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So you want, you know you want your managers to be creating these these conditions where people are not feeling overly threatened right so they’re.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: they’re increasing people’s sense of certainty and autonomy and all the things so you want managers to do that and create these conditions for growth mindset so they’re.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: they’re slightly different things, but there’s no question, if you had poor psychological safety you wouldn’t be able to have much for growth mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right, so if you if you had you know really poor if people really anxious all the time they’re not going to feel safe to explore right so there’s a definite link between the two, we think embedding the skills around both of these is really, really powerful.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And it’s yes, a lot of really interesting interesting links in there right anything else, want to add there about the kind of connections between those.

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Ryan Curl: yeah and I think it’s kind of reminiscent of our kelly’s comment to that you know isn’t a mindset really about me as a person, and not.

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Ryan Curl: Mrs like safety is a power, you know my brand interact with others, this more social relationship.

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Ryan Curl: And so I think the key component there too, as a as a culture that encourages a growth mindset right we call it growth mindset culture.

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Ryan Curl: Which is a crucial component of your ability to maintain a growth mindset and to act on it in your environment, and so, like, for example.

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Ryan Curl: You know one thing you need to be able to do is to share your mistakes to have a growth mindset, because you need to be able to learn.

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Ryan Curl: need to be able to learn from people who you know, can give you useful information.

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Ryan Curl: But if you’re not comfortable doing that you might say, you don’t have psychological safety or you might say, you know you don’t have a growth mindset culture right which is, which is to your point, every time, these things are are.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: ya know interesting you know to to olivia’s point there and then we’ll get into the science of bit maybe take a couple of questions, then we get into science, but so olivia’s point like.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: This is sort of what I was saying earlier, like you know, giving people the concept can be helpful, but to really shift someone’s mindset quite broadly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is you really kind of want to learn this in layers and we’ve been thinking about this a lot literally for 10 years you know, the first layer

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is kind of just shifting from really focusing on outcomes to valuing progress.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, for us, the first layer is is getting people to think in terms of not you know, did you do something, did you deliver a result, but where were you Where are you Where are you going.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So it’s always be thinking about the learning journey and in any context shifting to learning itself.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right that’s the first kind of prime and ideally what you want to do is have like a team thinking about that for a week, like the best way to learn this as an intact team or a cohort.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, working together on this concept for at least a week, maybe two weeks right, what is it to value progress.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And really think about continual learning right the second then there’s another layer, which is how do we get people to experiment.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, so now you value in progress and how do we get people to really experiment powerfully.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Try things you know, let go of looking perfect and then again spend a little time with that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The third one, is how do you then really ask for feedback and get input from others with what you’re doing so you’re really in this dynamic so we’ve seen those three things like when you learn them one time.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: can be super super powerful and that really embeds that deeper growth mindset we don’t actually have any data on just interesting on how much.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: People will have the habit just from a light kind of touch without those three deep habits, I don’t think we have any data on that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So all the data i’ve been giving you is on people who’ve learned the three specific habits, but anyway Ryan tell us a bit more about the science.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I know you did a little bit of a refresh on some of these topics take us away on some of the things that you’ve been finding that you think are really interested in.

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Ryan Curl: and actually one of those David.

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Ryan Curl: Just to kind of piggyback off what you were saying every you know we don’t have the full set of data there one recent thing that came out that was are really influenced your work was shown that.

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Ryan Curl: as little as an hour growth mindset intervention can have massive benefits which, which is really incredible and was really surprised at the field so many you know.

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Ryan Curl: Obviously, we want to dig in deeper and to really support learners through this process and pick up on habits, but.

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Ryan Curl: Even something as small as and our intervention can have really drastic impact, so that was published just just a couple years ago as well.

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Ryan Curl: But one of the things that was that came up that really struck me that I think is important, and maybe it.

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Ryan Curl: conflicts with some misconceptions people have about a growth mindset is that or things that are reminiscent of a growth mindset is that you know if i’m if i’m trying so many new things i’m leaving myself i’m going.

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Ryan Curl: To make more errors going to make more mistakes and there’s going to be a cost associated with those things.

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Ryan Curl: And maybe there’s some truth to that in certain contexts, but what’s been coming out recently and in these really important domains.

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Ryan Curl: Is that if you have a growth mindset you actually make less errors overall because you’re getting the most out of the errors that you make, whereas if you have a fixed mindset.

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Ryan Curl: you’re not learning as quickly and you’re going to continue making the same errors over and over again so maybe that’s not such a surprise, but the.

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Ryan Curl: In one context that this came up and was a neonatal resuscitation course and they showed that those that were going through this course that had a growth mindset made far fewer mistakes which you know the implications of that I think are pretty clear.

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Ryan Curl: What other example to that I think it’s really important that came out just a couple of years ago is.

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Ryan Curl: That heavy a growth mindset increases workplace satisfaction, overall, but they took a deeper look into in what circumstances this plays out.

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Ryan Curl: and one that really resonated with me and I think it was mentioned in the comments as well, the link to di.

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Ryan Curl: Is that you actually are, if you are exposed, or the victim of prejudice or bias and you have to navigate that in your workplace which ideally you wouldn’t have to, but we know that that happens.

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Ryan Curl: If you have a growth mindset you actually have far better outcomes navigating that process and it’s it’s not 100% clear why that is, but I think it’s something like.

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Ryan Curl: If I believe that I can change, and I can grow and get better, and I believe that about other people someone who treats me poorly.

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Ryan Curl: I will treat them as someone who you know, has made a mistake and maybe deserve repercussions for that, but also can change right until I can maintain my sense of belonging and my sense of.

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Ryan Curl: relatedness with these people within my organization, even with the situations that ideally wouldn’t happen.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah that’s really interesting but I wouldn’t want that to be kind of used the wrong way.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Now there’s a.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Potential for that to kind of be misused, but it is really interesting and I just want to comment on that one of the trends that we’ve seen in the last couple of years is organizations coming to us saying hey I want you to give us the best.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The best possible thinking on on transforming our dei you know practice and world increasingly we’re starting with with solution go grow we’re starting with like growth mindset as a foundation.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And for the Di world diversity equity inclusion like starting with getting everyone open to you know being wrong and to wanting other people’s opinions, and you know really learning like clearly that’s a that’s a really fantastic.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: fertile ground even put all soil right to then do other things in terms of bias and inclusion, I think, so you know if you if an organization has the kind of.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The the willingness of courage, we think that’s a really great place to start.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then go into like learning, you know how to actually mitigate bias and then go into learning inclusion and then you know, encouraging voices this kind of thing so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s it’s it’s a really powerful foundation with di space, but really all the references as well, yes, what else, what else has been coming up in the in the research.

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Ryan Curl: yeah so one thing that came up to in terms of you know it’s enough someone from an individual perspective, but from a organizational progress in a cultural perspective.

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Ryan Curl: Is you know they did this experiment that I thought was kind of neat where.

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Ryan Curl: They had a bunch of participants and they gave them hypothetical mission statements that were you know that were set to be indicative of an organizational mission statement.

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Ryan Curl: And they were all equal quality let’s say, but they were reminiscent of a fixed mindset culture versus a growth mindset culture, so these were things like.

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Ryan Curl: You know, we thrive off of our we we thrive off of developing our employees versus we thrive off of our talented employees.

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Ryan Curl: Growth mindset versus a fixed mindset, respectively, and what they showed is regardless of.

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Ryan Curl: priming them with this language of a growth and fixed mindset participants were much more excited by the growth mindset mission statements and and and we’re more.

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Ryan Curl: Far more likely to believe that they would be committed to that organization, but they were trust that organization as well, so it’s interesting that and just you know something is kind of superficial maybe as a mission statement.

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Ryan Curl: says a lot about you know what talent you’ll bring in you know what candidate to get and then, finally, they wanted to actually see if this was.

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Ryan Curl: played out in reality, so they pulled.

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Ryan Curl: Employees from fortune 1000 companies and they ask them questions about the culture of their organization and whether or not they had more of a growth mindset so fixed mindset.

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Ryan Curl: Without using that note that language and they found that those that perceived their organization to have more of a growth mindset culture.

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Ryan Curl: were more innovative, they were more trustworthy and they had more integrity, so I think the overarching point is, you know, not only is it.

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Ryan Curl: beneficial for organizations to have a growth mindset culture but it’s what people want they want to work in a place that will develop them that will treat them right.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Absolutely.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I remember sitting with the folks the learning team and IBM a couple of years ago and they had just mountains of data.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: More than anyone has ever had about like what makes people engaged and performing all this stuff and they just said there’s a huge outlier.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In the data that no one really knows, which is the number one variable for engagement retention for performance it’s just how much people are learning.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And if they’re learning a ton they’re happy motivated engaged and you know reminds me of the progress principle from Theresa may Allah.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: From Harvard just like you feeling like you’re making progress, you know but learning it’s different but learning feeling like you’re learning feeling like you’re growing.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is you know, is its own reward you get a greater sense of certainty grades it’s well Tommy greatest hits of status, you know it’s intrinsically rewarding but so that’s that’s really interesting.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A couple of couple of comments.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Coming up in the chat just to mention that I think Evan who’s the head of marketing put in the in the chat a link to a knowledge Center that we put together on growth mindset, so if you’re an aficionado really want to.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Understand growth mindset lots of our writings that studies have webinars all sorts of things if you kind of want to you know study up on this.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s it’s such an interesting it’s such an interesting area yeah any other studies Ryan, that you wanted to begin to dig into.

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Ryan Curl: um I think that covers it um let’s see if i’m missing anything got my notes here.

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Ryan Curl: yeah so, the more the one piece here, too, is that there may be the overarching point to is that.

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Ryan Curl: You know and David gave us nice kind of breakdown of the history of growth mindset over the years, one of the if we kind of narrow the timeline there in the last like maybe 15 years.

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Ryan Curl: You know a lot of growth mindset research was happening in education and academic context, which was really valuable, but maybe didn’t directly.

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Ryan Curl: resonate with you know the workforce, but what’s happened over the last 10 years or so, is that there’s so much of this work being done within organizations which is enormous value.

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Ryan Curl: Increases in work engagement performance, the ability and the benefit of receiving feedback all of these things are starting to be done within organizations to showing that, not surprisingly, the massive benefits of growth mindset culture.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah beautiful that’s a good segue to thinking about organizations, so you know as we think about change at scale.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and helping organizations transform to more of a fixed have more of a growth mindset culture, did I say fixed mindset.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: As we think about helping them transform to a much more about growth mindset culture is this, you know, three kinds of work to do, one is you know getting everyone talking about it, and when you know when such an adele started.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: At Microsoft he made growth mindset one of these platforms and some of the very first articles that he wrote about his philosophy and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: kind of what you know was literally about growth mindset and all the reading he does, and how he’s a learner not a knower and he he just talked about it over and over and over every interaction with everyone so he made a real priority as CEO.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To do this, and you know we’ve working with Pam from Ivanov, the CEO of evernote there you know students similar thing like just talking about this as a real priority.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Across 50,000 people so so you’ve got to make this concept of priority, first of all, you know lots of sorts of CEOs but lots of CEOs have really seen that this is a powerful construct.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That works, but then you’ve got to do the work to build habits and what we found is you know one habit, at a time over time it’s powerful.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: For us, a minimum viable product is is just like three or four weeks of learning every week and we see tremendous tremendous results.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In three or four weeks of learning these habits, especially when it’s done at scale and you could literally in fact 100,000 people in a month to have a growth mindset, we did that an Intel chip maker some years back.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: went to all 110,000 people in the same month embedding a growth mindset and some tremendous results so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Then the third part we haven’t talked much about his systems, and you know ryan’s talking about like the mission statements and values of this, I can look at a company’s kind of DNA people DNA and immediately see all the fixed mindset stuff in there that’s accidental.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, we want to hire the person with the most possible experience for the role you know that’s really fixed mindset, yet you want to hire someone that’s going to be an exciting stretch role.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Not someone who’s not everything before right, so I can immediately see as I look at companies, you know even their web page.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: As they talk about the people all the things that accidentally fixed mindset so in your language we accidentally prime for fixed or growth.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But also the actual processes with which we hire with which we promote with which we give feedback is a big one, the way we do performance management is a really big one.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The way we do succession planning, like all of it, you can really see a company that has a growth mindset philosophy, you know underneath that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And it makes a huge difference so generally the what we’ve seen is we kind of start with you know, a briefing for.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The CEO and top team to kind of get their head around this thing a priority, then we might do work organization wide on these habits to scale them and then we might come back after that and really start to partner with the organizational systems.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We might start with performance management or promotion or other systems and and really help them get these systems right we’ve got to really find assessment for that as well, so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: that’s you know you got to think about the whole system so it’s really a lot about habits, but you know you want to think about you know getting leaders to care, you know building habits and working on the systems it’s really all three.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then just a bit of a plug for not going back to invest in learning as we think about this.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Is a very exciting slide to ask because it’s the first time we’ve ever had hot data of like versus like on different different solutions and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know what I want to say is everyone’s excited to come back together right now amazing get them back together get them working around each other, once a month, maybe.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Maybe more, but you know don’t force people back in but folks who want to be together get them back in.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: don’t try to do learning in person again would be my strong recommendation because he you have.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know virtual, but you have two types of virtual learning very significantly more effective at activating habits than in person.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Now factor in the ridiculously higher scale and lower cost and you kind of crazy to put learning back in person, so do other things in person, have.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: working around each other days or weeks have social events, people are really you know excited to see each other but don’t make your learning slower more expensive and worse.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Because people want to be together That would be my thing because you could literally impacts thousand 10,000 hundred thousand people in the same month.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: With either of these two different learning options and it’d be much better than putting the entire company in a workshop, which would literally never happen.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So just just a word on that my team could maybe put in the chat the piece we wrote on this in fast company it’s called the fastest way to change a company so it’s a great time to not go back to in person workshops.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And maybe go back to social drinks.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Instead it’s just about learning about conferences there’s nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with a conference get incredible networking.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know, like social learning social interactions you know you get all sorts of great experiences, but don’t do learning events in person that are really significant.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Those are much better, but you know networking events knowledge sharing conferences those things to be wonderful in person.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But you might find they’re actually more effective, as with part of them in virtual maybe part of it in person and then maybe a tale, you know, every week for a month that is his workshop so yeah it’s amazing data I love this slide it took only 24 years to build it.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: it’s it’s really tells the story powerfully so.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You know I would encourage you to think about that and then something that we’re thinking about then we’ll take some questions last five minutes or so, but something we’re thinking about.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: This came from some conversations.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: With Microsoft, is that you know they’re really embedded these things into like their feedback processes into the system and since the hiring another really got a great example of a growth mindset culture, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, by the way they doing incredibly well.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: I can’t say that all of us, but you know growth mindsets really woven into so much of what they do now.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And they’re thinking about Okay, but it’s still you know people could adapt faster still people could learn faster and we’ve been playing with this idea of there’s a growth mindset there’s also a skill set and we’ve been thinking about like the specific habits that you need to.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: To literally be better at learning across the board so it’s it’s more it’s kind of a little click down on.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: On kind of learning and growing so it’s it’s like a double click on growth mindset, but specifically like you know the ways that you can learn things much, much faster and the real neuroscience on that so we’re you know we’re concept in that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And kind of thinking about that specifically going forward so just I mean i’m just curious if that’s of interest you just put the words growth skill set in the chat.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We may come back and do a session on that kind of do a bit of live research on what those things look like just what growth, a skill set in the chat if that’s of interest.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: i’m curious to see how much energy there is around that or excuse me coming up to kind of the end here i’m going to turn the slides off for a little bit let’s take some questions and we’ve got about maybe five minutes or so we’ll make sure you get back to your next thing in time.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Questions what’s coming in, you could put them either in the Q amp a or in the chat I see lots of people want growth skill set that’s really interesting.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, will we may get to work on that do a research session and invite all of you and others along to brainstorm together with us, which is really, really fun.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah so Questions Ryan there’s a couple a couple of that you see there in the chat I think the strengths, one is really interesting from Rebecca.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A there’s a whole lot of interesting kind of tussle between a strengths approach and a growth mindset approach.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And sometimes it’s hard to kind of unpack those two and think about them.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: i’m not sure if you’ve thought about a lot, but you know strengths strengths approach is more about kind of work out the things are really good at you know focus on those.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: A growth mindset approach is more like you know you could get better in any in any domain, do you see those kind of competing or supporting each other, how do you see the connections between those.

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Ryan Curl: You know I would see those supporting each other, you know the reality is you can’t.

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Ryan Curl: You know.

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Ryan Curl: focus your attention on every single possible skill that could benefit you right, so you want to.

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Ryan Curl: Have the belief that whatever you choose to pursue that you can actually be successful in that, but you also want some ability to to pinpoint you know what’s the most pragmatic thing for me to focus on right.

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Ryan Curl: I think that’s important too, because you need to be motivated to do this, and so, what are you what are you passionate about what will really benefit you where did you where does your energy really pointed towards to, so I think those things go hand in hand yeah.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Fantastic thanks very much learning agility and growth mindset are there overlaps in there, well, I mean I think they’re very strong mobile Apps in learning agility the way kind of some of the competency companies to find it I think there’s there’s a lot of overlap so what’s your perspective.

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Ryan Curl: yeah that’s absolutely right, I think you know I see growth mindset, as the foundation for your ability to learn envy edge on my way to right, I mean, especially now, in the.

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Ryan Curl: In the context of a big change happening quickly that seems to be you know the the norm, these days, he having the foundation of a growth mindset allows for the agility into adjusted return so.

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Ryan Curl: yeah that’s it that way yeah.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: amazing there’s lots to lots to say there, so I was asking about the difference between the two virtual methods i’ll do that, very briefly, so, but each of them are 30 day experience.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: The one that’s called a high five high impact virtual experience that’s essentially a cohort 2030 people once a week for three weeks.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: For about an hour sometimes 90 minutes, which is better, but 60 or 90 minutes and.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: cohort 20 to 30 going deep one habit, at a time, so the first week is literally on you know value progress second week on experiment.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Really really powerful can be in tech teams, or you know cohorts and that could scale quite nicely, but the other version that distributed learning solution dealers can scale massively.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And that’s essentially pushing out content to people managers to share with their teams every week from us and giving those people managers tools to share this with the teams have the conversations and, interestingly, not a huge difference between those two learning modalities.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Both of them significantly better than.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: than in person learning so even just putting out and, by the way, they’re not a content it’s five minutes it’s a five minute video once a week and a one page guide.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, putting that out to people managers that you know massive scale and getting the teams locally to talk about it, we find we can get you know very close to three when our workshops.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: In that way, so really, really, really interesting to be able to follow the data and and see that.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah right any other questions before we we go to some announcements, but folks stay on if you’re going to jump off just.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Maybe my team can put a quick poll up so we know how to follow up with you.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So before folks jump off just click that Pole, so we know kind of not to follow up with you at all or different things that we can follow.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: grow by the way, is our growth mindset solution it’s kind of a second oldest solution up to connect a really, really powerful one so click one of those Ryan any other questions you wanted to answer it before yeah we we do announcements.

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Ryan Curl: have so many great ones in here, unfortunately we can’t get to all of them, you know someone mentioned.

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Ryan Curl: Why the growth mindset literature in academia might not translate to organizations and I think it, I mean, I think, really, it does, I think that’s that’s one key thing is that you know, ultimately, we want.

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Ryan Curl: Of course, an academic context is focused on learning that’s the primary goal we want that goal to existing organizations as well, so that research very much does apply, but fortunately we don’t have to rely on it entirely because there’s.

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Ryan Curl: Plenty of new research coming out in the organizational context as well, said that there’s so many great questions and hero, but i’ll leave it there.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: yeah yeah maybe capture them and we’ll see if there’s some plans and we can write, we should do some more writing up on this, I think you’ll makes me want to do, like a whole growth mindset day.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Later in the year, where we just dig into the real science and practice and it’s such an important topic, I think it needs a lot more attention.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Thanks Ryan so much, I feel free to jump off, I really appreciate your brilliant brain i’m sure everyone else does it’s so great to have you on the team really appreciate everything that you do thank.

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Ryan Curl: You everyone.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Right, a couple of quick announcements one really important one is is we’re running a.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Whole we clean a master class for that we may end up pulling it up an insight level something else but we’re running a three month program for ddi practitioners.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: It starting in the fall, it was originally started in June it’s going to start early in the fall, maybe one of my team can put it in the chat.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But it’s it’s a program to spend literally three months with peers and it’s all high quality peers, who are internal practitioners.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Three months learning about the deepest science of TDI.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: we’re super psyched about it it’s a new format for learning because it’s just so much science and so much great stuff to the into we wanted to do that will probably do one on growth mindset and kind of learning and leadership more broadly.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: i’d say into next year, so we’ll do a similar kind of master class format on leadership and learning.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That encompasses growth mindset will probably do one separately on performance but right now there’s a dui one.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: You can apply for, that is, it is internal practitioners only not external consultants, but it’s incredible cohort of people i’ve seen the participants incredible cohort of people coming together.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: From from all sorts of different organizations, a couple other quick announcements just you know, speaking of data we’re really psyched to be able to collect and share much richer data now the number that you see in the middle of those.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: circles, is the percentage of large audiences applying a habit weekly now.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So, in other words top left for decide 78% of people weekly are doing something about mitigating bias, and this is two months after program so we’re getting you know deeper and deeper into assessing long term.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: habit activation across lots of lots of different solutions, the one missing from here is FLEX just because we haven’t collected enough data yet.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: But FLEX is a super popular one right now, obviously that’s about hybrid management and it’s a really, really important one actually just throw FLEX in the chat if you’re interested in learning more about FLEX we kind of didn’t talk about that much but.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Growth mindset we actually teach at the start of FLEX it’s one of the first things that we teach.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: So in the FLEX program is literally like you’re going to have to open your mindset and then you’re also going to have to give people more autonomy.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: was a throw FLEX in the chat appearance of the learning more about that program will will get that back to you in one way or another, but you know this data is really exciting there’s a ton a ton more data that we’re able to study, which is, which is really, really awesome.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: My team ship with this in the chat as well we’ve got a study we’d love your input on autonomy we’re trying to study and understand the types of autonomy that have the biggest impact.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Really really interesting question to ask what really has the biggest impact, so my team could throw this in the chat.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: That link in will come in a moment we’ll we’d love you to participate that and and share that as well there, it is thanks Evan so the autonomy one.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: If you’re from an organization and interested in following our work more closely, we have a group meeting every two weeks virtually for an hour with me and some of our other researchers.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We dive deep into all sorts of things we learn from each other, a ton there’s no cost to it, you need to be from an organization and in some kind of talent role it’s called the insiders community, so you can apply to join the inside, as Community my team again we’ll put that in the chat.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And it’s a wonderful community that meets every two weeks virtually focus on all sorts of different topics.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: And then, finally, we are hiring we have a bunch of open places all the time neuro leadership.com forward slash careers.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: We were fascinating organization to partner with us, you can imagine.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and take a look at korea’s if you’re interested in that, and finally there’s a podcast so lots of the sessions we’ve done in fact most of the sessions we’ve done are actually in the podcast encourage you to.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: subscribe to that and check that out there’s all sorts of amazing topics in there that’s it for me thank you so much for being here, I hope you got five minutes to get to the next thing.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: and definitely the contact person is all there in the careers page so lots of information by country just just go to the green space there.

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Dr. David Rock – NLI: Thanks everyone take care of ourselves look after each other, keep doing what matters, thanks to my team to the great work behind the scenes bye bye.